<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Hi,</SPAN></FONT><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">thanks for the invitation to participate to the list</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">reading your last posts, the main problem seems to be time acting like a "rouleau compresseur" on the autonomy process, as if things have to remain little otherwise after a certain time of growth, their shape will change. </SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">autonomy seems possible temporary, because then things are escaping to other states, </SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">time and size, </SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">a natural process against autonomy?</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">the utopian experience of "montagne verdi" with anarchists & libertarians gave equally birth to extreme left ideas and nazism</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">coming back to the idea of open source and free software community, and to the idea of autonomy in technology: systemic enclosure seems to be part of the deal</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">a bit like art when it is perceived as holy and unreachable by the massive part of the population, those who are autonomous technically can today be compared to the new clericans of our age, they have a very rare knowledge but their attitude is not always open and tolerant which is quite schysophrenic if they want to enlarge the use of free softwares and open source, if there is no bridge, there won't be a large use</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">in france, where state funding is the more common way to fund art projects, i guess that a solution towards more autonmy could be to go in direction of mixte fundings: state and private fundings, to diversify the ressources, in order to reduce the power of each</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">i agree that with the money of the net economy, a lot of good projects emerged, even if they were financed by the "devil" (just for fun), </SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">it gave a lot of ressources for creativity, since that period, many good creators were obliged to move from the art or research world to fund themselves...</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Isabelle Arvers</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">www.isabelle-arvers.com</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT><DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Le 23 mars 06 à 03:22, john sobol a écrit :</SPAN></FONT></DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">A few days ago YouTube was bought by MTV.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">MySpace is now in Rupert Murdoch's hands.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">ICQ was obtained by AOL.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Google acquired Writely as part of their online vision.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Blogger is of course in Google's pocket for a long time.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Del.icio.us and Flickr are now owned by Yahoo.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Hi</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Is it necessarily the case that developing new and appealing social networking communities, watching them flower and then selling them off, is an inherently unsustainable or negative socio-economic pattern? Has the quality of these services decreased substantially since being bought? Do you foresee that it will? Does it even matter?</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Might we make a valid comparison to, say, bands gaining local or cult followings and then signing with major labels and going mainstream? The idea that bands who do this are 'selling out' is pretty outdated by now, right? We all know that bands can be rich and famous and still have creative integrity and artistic merit. But we also know that newer, fresher and more relevant bands will emerge to renew the process again and again. And audiences will move from one band to the next, or stay with their favourites, (as they may stay with or move on from MySpace) but the churn is desirable and lucrative and feeds creative and economic growth within the music industry.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">If we don't look at the buyout of what were once cult-fave sites as selling out but rather as a kind of natural maturation leading towards eventual natural obsolescence and replacement then all this money being injected into the gift economy may be a good thing. Sure some people will take the bucks and run but others will invest in new cool sites and projects, (i.e. Langlois, Skoll, Glaser et al.). We'll miss the good sites that once were in a nostalgic kind of way perhaps (hello Bolt.com? Hello Psyche? etc.etc.etc.) but only in the same we enjoy hearing songs from our youth (or don't) .</SPAN></FONT><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">The companies that buy the eyeballs that come with these sites will milk their investments as hard and long as they can (and not always being complete idiots they will not always rape and pillage their investment but may even support and amplify its strengths) until people are tired of it or something better comes along, which is likely to be sooner rather than later. And might not the gift economy then gain greater and greater economic scope and influence as the list of online communities that 1) thrive 2) are successfully economically leveraged and 3) pass away, grows longer and longer?</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Getting bought by Salon didn't destroy the Well, but its importance has greatly diminished because the networked world around it has caught up and surpassed it in magnetic and catalytic and discursive power. Maybe this is not regrettable but entirely normal and desirable. What is the natural decay rate of a networked community? What comes after Flickr with ads? Check back in 6 or 12 months and we'll see.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">No doubt a more balanced analysis would highlight many reservations about this model but I thought I'd throw it out there for consideration...</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">js</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">--</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">www.johnsobol.com</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">bluesology • printopolis • digitopia</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">_______________________________________________</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">iDC -- mailing list of the Institute for Distributed Creativity (distributedcreativity.org)</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><A href="mailto:iDC@bbs.thing.net">iDC@bbs.thing.net</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><A href="http://mailman.thing.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/idc">http://mailman.thing.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/idc</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">List Archive:</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><A href="http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/">http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>