Hi Robert,<br><br>beautifully said, coulnd't agree more <g><br><br>I believe that nothing is more dangerous to any existing order, than losing interest in it.<br><br>The issues of violence, reformism/revolution, might arise at some point, but are in nobody's control anyway, and the response of peer producers will be emergent, we cannot simply rehash the theories, practices and controversies of hegemonic and counter-hegemonic times, but must proceed from the new logic of affinities and emergence..
<br><br>Peer to peer processes combine transgressive behaviour (filesharing), constructive ones (creating a new world of free software, social media, new property licenses, etc...), and reformist, as and when the new freedoms are threatened and repressed by the existing institutions.
<br><br>Eben Moglen said somewhere that what it offers is the possibility of going beyond 'forced redistribution'.<br><br>I would be happy to hear any opinions on that strong statement.<br><br>Michel<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">
On 2/10/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">R Labossiere</b> <<a href="mailto:admin@klooj.net">admin@klooj.net</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Baby you can drive my car.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">And maybe I'll love you.</font></div></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">democracy, what is it? why do we cleave to it as an
"ideal"?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">p2p is not democractic per se, it's a new
phenomenon, people coalesceing around issues, topics,
processes...</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">and that has little to do
with representational poltiics</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">a) it isn't political (it may be, but that isn't
necessarily the driving force)</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">b) it isn't representational -- there aren't
appointed (or even elected) spokespersons pivoting at some upper point on the
folks they represent</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">what it is (imho) is flat... pluralistic...
inclusive... results driven...intuitive (people will cleave to what they feel is
"right" once it is enunciated by anyone)</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">what it not is... representational... leadership
driven... expertise driven (though guidance by the better informed is part of
it, so we need to consider perhaps the meritocracy effect)</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">what will be critical is the way p2p produces
results (without authority as we know it), how it will press back on
represenational democacy, subtended, as we see everywhere democracy
has been, to corporate power.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">on a brighter note, ha ha, the idea that
violence might be necessary to subvert "the system" is proven to be no longer
true and is abandonned in favour of progressive, if indeterminate, development.
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">P2P plays a different game, in which the goal is
the creation of, and choice between, alternatives. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">We are closer to realizing this possibility than we
can imagine.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Baby you can drive my car.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">And maybe I'll love you</font>.</div></font></div></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><div><span class="e" id="q_110ab656b5aeda92_1">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
<b>From:</b>
<a title="michelsub2004@gmail.com" href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Michel
Bauwens</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="idc@bbs.thing.net" href="mailto:idc@bbs.thing.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
iDC</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 09,<span class="jajahWraper">
<a class="jajahLink" title="Click to call this number with JAJAH..." href="javascript:void(0)"><span class="jajahInLink"> 2007 10</span></a></span>:19
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [iDC] How does social media
educate?</div>
<div><br></div>In my opinion, the 'peer governance' of projects where people
congregate to produce something in common, where participation brings
decision, differs from democracy.<br><br>What I think happened is that our new
distributed technical and organizational infrastructures allow for the global
coordination of a multitiude of small projects, which have a scale that
permits such co-decision, and turns out to be more democratic and efficient
than centralized or decentralized modes. Because it is more efficient, the
existing institutions feel driven to adopt it, while at the same time they
need to protect their existing power monopolies. Trying to mix and match both
is what gives it the contradictory nature. <br><br>The hypothesis of a peer to
peer mode of civilization is simply that the p2p mode will be the core, that
the current subsystem becomes the metasystem. The other two scenarios, one of
which is that the old establishment achieves to stop the new, I believe to be
irrealistic, if only because it is destroying the biosphere and therefore
incompatible with its own reproduction; the middle scenario, a successfull
integration of peer to peer within a renewed Empire and system of cognitive
capitalism, is a distinct possibility, but not a certainty. <br><br>Democracy
however, is not distribution, but decentralization, because it operates on too
big a scale, and there is no a priori consensus.<br><br>Peer governance, which
is non-representational, does therefore not replace representative
democracy, both will co-exist. As peer projects get bigger, they may have to
adopt representational processes, while on the other side of the equation,
representative processes will adapt and/or make place for more spheres of
responsible autonomy and self-governed networks, while itself also adapting
multistakeholder formats that bypass pure representation. <br><br>Mills
definition cannot be applied to the processes inherent in peer governance,
which circumvents scarcity.<br><br>Michel<br><br>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 2/6/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Ulises</b>
<<a href="mailto:arsalaan1-idc@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">arsalaan1-idc@yahoo.com
</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Tobias
(and all),<br><br>I share your sentiments regarding Hinchcliffe's
definition. Somehow, it is not enough. <br><br>Someone please fill in the
blank: Instead of seeking to define social media in functional terms (all
the hype about what it can do), we need to define it in terms of _________
.<br><br>We tend to get excited about the presence of the word 'social' in
the term 'social media.' It signifies a new era, we are told (for the sort
of reasons Hinchcliffe gives). At the same time, we take too much for
granted (I believe) the presence of the word 'media,' a word that hints at
very specific dynamics of information consumption and social control. You
wrote: <br><br>"if these [Hinchcliffe's] 5 points [conversation, open
organization, transparency, bidirectionality, and distribution] face
significant difficulty throughout history, then why would
a specific technology somehow enable the realization of these
[direct democracy] values?" <br><br>Precisely! This is the reason why I
asked at the beginning:<br><br>What is the educational problem in our
societies to which social media is said to be the obvious answer?<br>What
kind of society requires the emergence of social media as an educational
tool in the first place? <br><br>Consider the importance that Hinchcliffe
gives to 'pull' --as opposed to 'push'-- in social media. This
characteristic is important only because media has historically been
associated with 'push.' Now, however, we are told that _social_ media is
'flattening the world' of communication. Why, then, continue to call it
_media_? Is our collective subconscious interjecting a moment of
honesty here? When 'push' becomes a mass phenomenon, doesn't it start to
approximate 'push'? <br><br>You bring up direct democracy. Here's C.W.
Mills' description of direct democracy:<br><br>"The people are presented
with problems. They discuss them. They decide on them. They formulate
viewpoints. These viewpoints are organized, and they compete. One viewpoint
'wins out.' Then the people act out this view, or their representatives are
instructed to act it out, and this they promptly do." (The power elite,
1956, pp. 299-300) <br><br>Mills was deriding this uncomplicated view of
direct democracy because it does not take into account power dynamics. But
our enthusiasm for social media seems to fuel this fantasy. Hey, what could
be better for democracy than a healthy public sphere with increased
possibilities for communication? But it's like Deleuze says: "Repressive
forces don't stop people expressing themselves but rather force them to
express themselves... What we're are plagued by these days isn't any
blocking of communication, but pointless statements." (Negotiations, 1995,
p. 129). <br><br>If social media is to fulfill an educational purpose, it
will need to contribute more than the individual's ability to make a
statement, even if that statement is made in an environment with the
flatness, transparency, bidirectionality, and open distribution that
Hinchcliffe describes as the essence of social media.
<br><br>-Ulises<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>iDC
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<br>-- <br>The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes
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</p><hr><span class="q">
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</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer alternatives.<br><br>Wiki and Encyclopedia, at <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net">http://p2pfoundation.net
</a>; Blog, at <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a>; Newsletter, at <a href="http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p">http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p</a><br><br>
Basic essay at <a href="http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499">http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499</a>; interview at <a href="http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html">http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
</a>; video interview, at <a href="http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2006/09/29/network_collaboration_peer_to_peer.htm">http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2006/09/29/network_collaboration_peer_to_peer.htm</a><br><br>The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by
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