<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Anyone that needs to ask "what has Brian Holmes done?" should go and do some research and not engage in flaming.<div><br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Nicholas Mirzoeff<br>Department of Media, Culture and Communication,<br>NYU,<br>239 Greene St, 7th floor<br>New York, NY 10012<br><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Blog: <a href="http://nicholasmirzoeff.com/RTL">http://nicholasmirzoeff.com/RTL</a></div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">News: <a href="http://nicholasmirzoeff.com/news">http://nicholasmirzoeff.com/news</a></div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">The New Everyday: <a href="http://mediacommons.futureofthebook.org/tne">http://mediacommons.futureofthebook.org/tne</a></div></div></div></span></span>
</div>
<br><div><div>On Sep 7, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Anya Kamenetz wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">Well, if you're going to toss about words like "builder", "maker," and "naive",<br>John Bell has built a tool and platform for learning, which we're currently discussing to generate new ideas.<br>
Phillipp Schmidt has made a tool and platform for learning, which I'm currently participating on.<br>Neither of them are corporate.<br>What have you built to make the Internet better for radical education? What's your project?<br>
a<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Brian Holmes <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bhcontinentaldrift@gmail.com">bhcontinentaldrift@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
I don't have any such orthodoxy. I just have an opinion on your apparent<br>
naivete. The Internet is good for a lot of things, but as time goes by,<br>
more and more of them are corporate. To make it good for radical<br>
education is actually a project that interests me. However, the<br>
discussion in this thread just replicates the protocols of Web 2.0<br>
infotainment, a narcissistic hook and a very superficial format for<br>
learning. Let the maker and the user beware.<br>
<br>
best, Brian<br>
<div class="im"><br>
On 09/07/2011 01:56 PM, Anya Kamenetz wrote:<br>
> Brian,<br>
> doesn't your participation on this email list violate your orthodoxy of<br>
> the skin-to-skin holy transmission of knowledge?<br>
> a<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Brian Holmes<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">> <<a href="mailto:bhcontinentaldrift@gmail.com">bhcontinentaldrift@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:bhcontinentaldrift@gmail.com">bhcontinentaldrift@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> This is a timely subject just as public education is getting axed all<br>
> over the world. It will be the final victory of the bosses: without<br>
> books, without attention span, without ideas except those piped in by<br>
> the media and above all without others, control will be complete.<br>
><br>
> You'll get the source without the crowd, perfect sterility.<br>
><br>
> I submit that the chance to escape from total fear and submission<br>
> depends on having some contact to another speaking body in the room.<br>
><br>
> But probably the apolitical designer types can get two or three weeks<br>
> work making edu-sites for future capitalist game robots!<br>
><br>
> good luck, BH<br>
><br>
> On 09/06/2011 11:13 AM, John Bell wrote:<br>
> > Yes, I think identifying and distinguishing types of peers is an<br>
> > important aspect of the kind of system I'm talking about. The part<br>
> > that's problematic is--without falling back on external validation<br>
> > like degrees and academic positions--figuring out which people are<br>
> > which type, and what the scope of the types are. For example, I just<br>
> > did something similar for a proposal as part of the<br>
> > Mozilla+Journalism project where I was trying to identify commenters<br>
> > with expertise in different fields so they could add annotation to<br>
> > mass media articles. In that system a commenter could claim a level<br>
> > of expertise when they made a comment and a trust metric would adjust<br>
> > their long-term credibility based on how other users rate that<br>
> > comment. It's a refinement of the old Slashdot karma model, but one<br>
> > that seems useful in this situation.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> (<a href="http://www.nmdjohn.com/2011/08/05/moznewslab-week-4-pitching-reposte/" target="_blank">http://www.nmdjohn.com/2011/08/05/moznewslab-week-4-pitching-reposte/</a><br>
> > if anybody is curious.)<br>
> ><br>
> > But I think there are limits to how much participation can be<br>
> > incentivized without ending up back at cash, which I suspect<br>
> > introduces its own problems. Look at the situation with Wikipedia<br>
> > where they rewarded participation by turning users into bureaucrats,<br>
> > creating a system that's often accused of being petty and detrimental<br>
> > to the health of the project. Amazon's biggest reviewer is widely<br>
> > regarded as untrustworthy by people who know who she is, writing<br>
> > reviews of books that she clearly hasn't read (those who don't<br>
> > recognize her of course don't know this, and Amazon doesn't expose<br>
> > enough information for casual users to reach that conclusion on their<br>
> > own).<br>
> ><br>
> > So the question I'm left with is how to create incentives that go<br>
> > beyond status in the internal community. Can external incentives be<br>
> > used without creating the equivalent of Warcraft gold farmers? What<br>
> > would they be?<br>
> ><br>
> > - John<br>
> ><br>
> > On Sep 5, 2011, at 6:02 PM, Anya Kamenetz wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >> Really interesting stuff, John! Definitely agree with you on the<br>
> >> "necessary but not sufficient" formulation.<br>
> >><br>
> >>>> But the issue we’d like to discuss with the list is what a<br>
> >>>> system with the same goals--ongoing, deep evaluation of complex<br>
> >>>> learning--would look like if it were designed to work on the<br>
> >>>> same scale as, say, the Khan Academy. Is peer feedback<br>
> >>>> sufficient to meet those goals? If so, quality would somehow<br>
> >>>> need to be controlled so that it doesn’t turn into a stream of<br>
> >>>> YouTube comments, and if not some other method would have to be<br>
> >>>> used to deal with large volumes of students.<br>
> >><br>
> >> What strikes me is that there are different types of peers--some<br>
> >> peers perhaps more equal than others. In a community of practice<br>
> >> model there are fellow beginners, who have one type of feedback to<br>
> >> offer, then there are people just ahead of you--like the sophomore,<br>
> >> junior, senior to your freshman, who have a different type of<br>
> >> feedback (less grounded in immediate understanding of what you're<br>
> >> going through and more grounded in knowledge and experience), and<br>
> >> then graduate student/TA/professor with a more sophisticated<br>
> >> offering still.<br>
> >><br>
> >> One can imagine a scalable system that incentivizes feedback<br>
> >> according to the experience and sophistication of the person<br>
> >> offering it, and thus its likely value to the user. Maybe it's a<br>
> >> "freemium" model where learners give and receive feedback freely as<br>
> >> a condition of participation up to a certain level of experience,<br>
> >> and the most experienced participants receive other kinds of<br>
> >> incentives (even money?) in exchange for offering the most<br>
> >> detailed, sophisticated, time-consuming forms of feedback. I often<br>
> >> think back to my summer studying capoeira where the most<br>
> >> experienced students took on more and more responsibilities<br>
> >> instructing the beginners, as an honor--but only the mestre gets<br>
> >> paid.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Of course there are other technological ways of encouraging quality<br>
> >> control on a large system that depends for its value on freely<br>
> >> offered feedback. These are all over the net. TripAdvisor, Amazon,<br>
> >> eBay, Quora, Yelp are all good examples--Yelp in particular, again<br>
> >> for the way it incentivizes its best providers of feedback, making<br>
> >> them a recognized part of a community, allowing the raters to earn<br>
> >> ratings. LinkedIn with its endorsement structure another one to<br>
> >> look at. Maybe you need a system of badges, tags or profile<br>
> >> keywords so you can ask a native Brazilian to read your Portuguese<br>
> >> paper or a nationally ranked chess player to check out your game or<br>
> >> someone with a stellar Github rating to look at your code. a<br>
> ><br>
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> --<br>
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