I don't think it's flaming to ask people to speak constructively and even ground in their own experience when criticizing the work of others. Mess Hall does look very cool. <br>a<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Nicholas Mirzoeff <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nmirzoeff@gmail.com">nmirzoeff@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Anyone that needs to ask "what has Brian Holmes done?" should go and do some research and not engage in flaming.<div>
<br><font color="#888888"><div>
<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>Nicholas Mirzoeff<br>Department of Media, Culture and Communication,<br>NYU,<br>239 Greene St, 7th floor<br>New York, NY 10012<br><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Blog: <a href="http://nicholasmirzoeff.com/RTL" target="_blank">http://nicholasmirzoeff.com/RTL</a></div>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">News: <a href="http://nicholasmirzoeff.com/news" target="_blank">http://nicholasmirzoeff.com/news</a></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word">The New Everyday: <a href="http://mediacommons.futureofthebook.org/tne" target="_blank">http://mediacommons.futureofthebook.org/tne</a></div>
</div></div></span></span>
</div></font><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<br><div><div>On Sep 7, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Anya Kamenetz wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite">Well, if you're going to toss about words like "builder", "maker," and "naive",<br>John Bell has built a tool and platform for learning, which we're currently discussing to generate new ideas.<br>
Phillipp Schmidt has made a tool and platform for learning, which I'm currently participating on.<br>Neither of them are corporate.<br>What have you built to make the Internet better for radical education? What's your project?<br>
a<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Brian Holmes <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bhcontinentaldrift@gmail.com" target="_blank">bhcontinentaldrift@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I don't have any such orthodoxy. I just have an opinion on your apparent<br>
naivete. The Internet is good for a lot of things, but as time goes by,<br>
more and more of them are corporate. To make it good for radical<br>
education is actually a project that interests me. However, the<br>
discussion in this thread just replicates the protocols of Web 2.0<br>
infotainment, a narcissistic hook and a very superficial format for<br>
learning. Let the maker and the user beware.<br>
<br>
best, Brian<br>
<div><br>
On 09/07/2011 01:56 PM, Anya Kamenetz wrote:<br>
> Brian,<br>
> doesn't your participation on this email list violate your orthodoxy of<br>
> the skin-to-skin holy transmission of knowledge?<br>
> a<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Brian Holmes<br>
</div><div><div></div><div>> <<a href="mailto:bhcontinentaldrift@gmail.com" target="_blank">bhcontinentaldrift@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:bhcontinentaldrift@gmail.com" target="_blank">bhcontinentaldrift@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> This is a timely subject just as public education is getting axed all<br>
> over the world. It will be the final victory of the bosses: without<br>
> books, without attention span, without ideas except those piped in by<br>
> the media and above all without others, control will be complete.<br>
><br>
> You'll get the source without the crowd, perfect sterility.<br>
><br>
> I submit that the chance to escape from total fear and submission<br>
> depends on having some contact to another speaking body in the room.<br>
><br>
> But probably the apolitical designer types can get two or three weeks<br>
> work making edu-sites for future capitalist game robots!<br>
><br>
> good luck, BH<br>
><br>
> On 09/06/2011 11:13 AM, John Bell wrote:<br>
> > Yes, I think identifying and distinguishing types of peers is an<br>
> > important aspect of the kind of system I'm talking about. The part<br>
> > that's problematic is--without falling back on external validation<br>
> > like degrees and academic positions--figuring out which people are<br>
> > which type, and what the scope of the types are. For example, I just<br>
> > did something similar for a proposal as part of the<br>
> > Mozilla+Journalism project where I was trying to identify commenters<br>
> > with expertise in different fields so they could add annotation to<br>
> > mass media articles. In that system a commenter could claim a level<br>
> > of expertise when they made a comment and a trust metric would adjust<br>
> > their long-term credibility based on how other users rate that<br>
> > comment. It's a refinement of the old Slashdot karma model, but one<br>
> > that seems useful in this situation.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> (<a href="http://www.nmdjohn.com/2011/08/05/moznewslab-week-4-pitching-reposte/" target="_blank">http://www.nmdjohn.com/2011/08/05/moznewslab-week-4-pitching-reposte/</a><br>
> > if anybody is curious.)<br>
> ><br>
> > But I think there are limits to how much participation can be<br>
> > incentivized without ending up back at cash, which I suspect<br>
> > introduces its own problems. Look at the situation with Wikipedia<br>
> > where they rewarded participation by turning users into bureaucrats,<br>
> > creating a system that's often accused of being petty and detrimental<br>
> > to the health of the project. Amazon's biggest reviewer is widely<br>
> > regarded as untrustworthy by people who know who she is, writing<br>
> > reviews of books that she clearly hasn't read (those who don't<br>
> > recognize her of course don't know this, and Amazon doesn't expose<br>
> > enough information for casual users to reach that conclusion on their<br>
> > own).<br>
> ><br>
> > So the question I'm left with is how to create incentives that go<br>
> > beyond status in the internal community. Can external incentives be<br>
> > used without creating the equivalent of Warcraft gold farmers? What<br>
> > would they be?<br>
> ><br>
> > - John<br>
> ><br>
> > On Sep 5, 2011, at 6:02 PM, Anya Kamenetz wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >> Really interesting stuff, John! Definitely agree with you on the<br>
> >> "necessary but not sufficient" formulation.<br>
> >><br>
> >>>> But the issue we’d like to discuss with the list is what a<br>
> >>>> system with the same goals--ongoing, deep evaluation of complex<br>
> >>>> learning--would look like if it were designed to work on the<br>
> >>>> same scale as, say, the Khan Academy. Is peer feedback<br>
> >>>> sufficient to meet those goals? If so, quality would somehow<br>
> >>>> need to be controlled so that it doesn’t turn into a stream of<br>
> >>>> YouTube comments, and if not some other method would have to be<br>
> >>>> used to deal with large volumes of students.<br>
> >><br>
> >> What strikes me is that there are different types of peers--some<br>
> >> peers perhaps more equal than others. In a community of practice<br>
> >> model there are fellow beginners, who have one type of feedback to<br>
> >> offer, then there are people just ahead of you--like the sophomore,<br>
> >> junior, senior to your freshman, who have a different type of<br>
> >> feedback (less grounded in immediate understanding of what you're<br>
> >> going through and more grounded in knowledge and experience), and<br>
> >> then graduate student/TA/professor with a more sophisticated<br>
> >> offering still.<br>
> >><br>
> >> One can imagine a scalable system that incentivizes feedback<br>
> >> according to the experience and sophistication of the person<br>
> >> offering it, and thus its likely value to the user. Maybe it's a<br>
> >> "freemium" model where learners give and receive feedback freely as<br>
> >> a condition of participation up to a certain level of experience,<br>
> >> and the most experienced participants receive other kinds of<br>
> >> incentives (even money?) in exchange for offering the most<br>
> >> detailed, sophisticated, time-consuming forms of feedback. I often<br>
> >> think back to my summer studying capoeira where the most<br>
> >> experienced students took on more and more responsibilities<br>
> >> instructing the beginners, as an honor--but only the mestre gets<br>
> >> paid.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Of course there are other technological ways of encouraging quality<br>
> >> control on a large system that depends for its value on freely<br>
> >> offered feedback. These are all over the net. TripAdvisor, Amazon,<br>
> >> eBay, Quora, Yelp are all good examples--Yelp in particular, again<br>
> >> for the way it incentivizes its best providers of feedback, making<br>
> >> them a recognized part of a community, allowing the raters to earn<br>
> >> ratings. LinkedIn with its endorsement structure another one to<br>
> >> look at. Maybe you need a system of badges, tags or profile<br>
> >> keywords so you can ask a native Brazilian to read your Portuguese<br>
> >> paper or a nationally ranked chess player to check out your game or<br>
> >> someone with a stellar Github rating to look at your code. a<br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________ iDC -- mailing list<br>
> > of the Institute for Distributed Creativity<br>
</div></div>> > (<a href="http://distributedcreativity.org/" target="_blank">distributedcreativity.org</a> <<a href="http://distributedcreativity.org/" target="_blank">http://distributedcreativity.org</a>>)<br>
> <a href="mailto:iDC@mailman.thing.net" target="_blank">iDC@mailman.thing.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:iDC@mailman.thing.net" target="_blank">iDC@mailman.thing.net</a>><br>
<div>> > <a href="https://mailman.thing.net/mailman/listinfo/idc" target="_blank">https://mailman.thing.net/mailman/listinfo/idc</a><br>
> ><br>
> > List Archive: <a href="http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/" target="_blank">http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/</a><br>
> ><br>
> > iDC Photo Stream: <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/idcnetwork/" target="_blank">http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/idcnetwork/</a><br>
> ><br>
> > RSS feed: <a href="http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.culture.media.idc" target="_blank">http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.culture.media.idc</a><br>
> ><br>
> > iDC Chat on Facebook:<br>
> > <a href="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2457237647" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2457237647</a><br>
> ><br>
</div>> > Share relevant URLs on <a href="http://Del.icio.us/" target="_blank">Del.icio.us</a> <<a href="http://Del.icio.us/" target="_blank">http://Del.icio.us</a>> by adding<br>
<div>> the tag iDCref<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> iDC -- mailing list of the Institute for Distributed Creativity<br>
</div>> (<a href="http://distributedcreativity.org/" target="_blank">distributedcreativity.org</a> <<a href="http://distributedcreativity.org/" target="_blank">http://distributedcreativity.org</a>>)<br>
> <a href="mailto:iDC@mailman.thing.net" target="_blank">iDC@mailman.thing.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:iDC@mailman.thing.net" target="_blank">iDC@mailman.thing.net</a>><br>
<div>> <a href="https://mailman.thing.net/mailman/listinfo/idc" target="_blank">https://mailman.thing.net/mailman/listinfo/idc</a><br>
><br>
> List Archive:<br>
> <a href="http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/" target="_blank">http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/</a><br>
><br>
> iDC Photo Stream:<br>
> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/idcnetwork/" target="_blank">http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/idcnetwork/</a><br>
><br>
> RSS feed:<br>
> <a href="http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.culture.media.idc" target="_blank">http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.culture.media.idc</a><br>
><br>
> iDC Chat on Facebook:<br>
> <a href="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2457237647" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2457237647</a><br>
><br>
</div>> Share relevant URLs on <a href="http://Del.icio.us/" target="_blank">Del.icio.us</a> <<a href="http://Del.icio.us/" target="_blank">http://Del.icio.us</a>> by adding<br>
> the tag iDCref<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> *New ebook!** *The Edupunks' Guide <<a href="http://edupunksguide.org/" target="_blank">http://edupunksguide.org/</a>>*<br>
<div>> Fast Company column* Life In Beta<br>
</div>> <<a href="http://www.fastcompany.com/user/anya-kamenetz" target="_blank">http://www.fastcompany.com/user/anya-kamenetz</a>><br>
> *Tribune Media column* The Savings Game<br>
> <<a href="http://www.tmsfeatures.com/columns/business/personal-finance/savings-game/" target="_blank">http://www.tmsfeatures.com/columns/business/personal-finance/savings-game/</a>><br>
> *Book* DIY U: Edupunks, Edupreneurs and the Coming Transformation of<br>
> Higher Education<br>
> <<a href="http://www.amazon.com/DIY-Edupunks-Edupreneurs-Transformation-Education/dp/1603582347" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/DIY-Edupunks-Edupreneurs-Transformation-Education/dp/1603582347</a>><br>
> *Blog* <a href="http://DIYUbook.com" target="_blank">DIYUbook.com</a> <<a href="http://diyubook.com/" target="_blank">http://diyubook.com/</a>><br>
> *Twitter *@Anya1anya <<a href="http://twitter.com/#%21/anya1anya" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/#%21/anya1anya</a>><br>
><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<div><div></div><div>iDC -- mailing list of the Institute for Distributed Creativity (<a href="http://distributedcreativity.org/" target="_blank">distributedcreativity.org</a>)<br>
<a href="mailto:iDC@mailman.thing.net" target="_blank">iDC@mailman.thing.net</a><br>
<a href="https://mailman.thing.net/mailman/listinfo/idc" target="_blank">https://mailman.thing.net/mailman/listinfo/idc</a><br>
<br>
List Archive:<br>
<a href="http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/" target="_blank">http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/</a><br>
<br>
iDC Photo Stream:<br>
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/idcnetwork/" target="_blank">http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/idcnetwork/</a><br>
<br>
RSS feed:<br>
<a href="http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.culture.media.idc" target="_blank">http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.culture.media.idc</a><br>
<br>
iDC Chat on Facebook:<br>
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2457237647" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2457237647</a><br>
<br>
Share relevant URLs on <a href="http://Del.icio.us/" target="_blank">Del.icio.us</a> by adding the tag iDCref<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><b><span style="color:rgb(51, 204, 255)">New ebook!</span></b><b> </b><a href="http://edupunksguide.org/" target="_blank">The Edupunks' Guide</a><b><br>Fast Company column</b> <a href="http://www.fastcompany.com/user/anya-kamenetz" target="_blank">Life In Beta</a><br>
<b>Tribune Media column</b> <a href="http://www.tmsfeatures.com/columns/business/personal-finance/savings-game/" target="_blank">The Savings Game</a><br><b>Book</b> <a href="http://www.amazon.com/DIY-Edupunks-Edupreneurs-Transformation-Education/dp/1603582347" target="_blank">DIY U: Edupunks, Edupreneurs and the Coming Transformation of Higher Education </a><br>
<b>Blog</b> <a href="http://diyubook.com/" target="_blank">DIYUbook.com </a><br><b>Twitter </b><a href="http://twitter.com/#%21/anya1anya" target="_blank">@Anya1anya</a><br><br>
_______________________________________________<br>iDC -- mailing list of the Institute for Distributed Creativity (<a href="http://distributedcreativity.org" target="_blank">distributedcreativity.org</a>)<br><a href="mailto:iDC@mailman.thing.net" target="_blank">iDC@mailman.thing.net</a><br>
<a href="https://mailman.thing.net/mailman/listinfo/idc" target="_blank">https://mailman.thing.net/mailman/listinfo/idc</a><br><br>List Archive:<br><a href="http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/" target="_blank">http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/</a><br>
<br>iDC Photo Stream:<br><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/idcnetwork/" target="_blank">http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/idcnetwork/</a><br><br>RSS feed:<br><a href="http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.culture.media.idc" target="_blank">http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.culture.media.idc</a><br>
<br>iDC Chat on Facebook:<br><a href="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2457237647" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2457237647</a><br><br>Share relevant URLs on <a href="http://Del.icio.us" target="_blank">Del.icio.us</a> by adding the tag iDCref</blockquote>
</div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><b><span style="color:rgb(51, 204, 255)">New ebook!</span></b><b> </b><a href="http://edupunksguide.org/" target="_blank">The Edupunks' Guide</a><b><br>
Fast Company column</b> <a href="http://www.fastcompany.com/user/anya-kamenetz" target="_blank">Life In Beta</a><br><b>Tribune Media column</b> <a href="http://www.tmsfeatures.com/columns/business/personal-finance/savings-game/" target="_blank">The Savings Game</a><br>
<b>Book</b> <a href="http://www.amazon.com/DIY-Edupunks-Edupreneurs-Transformation-Education/dp/1603582347" target="_blank">DIY U: Edupunks, Edupreneurs and the Coming Transformation of Higher Education </a><br><b>Blog</b> <a href="http://diyubook.com/" target="_blank">DIYUbook.com </a><br>
<b>Twitter </b><a href="http://twitter.com/#%21/anya1anya" target="_blank">@Anya1anya</a><br><br>