[iDC] Can DIY education be crowdsourced?
Anya Kamenetz
anyaanya at gmail.com
Wed Sep 7 20:30:44 UTC 2011
I don't think it's flaming to ask people to speak constructively and even
ground in their own experience when criticizing the work of others. Mess
Hall does look very cool.
a
On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Nicholas Mirzoeff <nmirzoeff at gmail.com>wrote:
> Anyone that needs to ask "what has Brian Holmes done?" should go and do
> some research and not engage in flaming.
>
> Nicholas Mirzoeff
> Department of Media, Culture and Communication,
> NYU,
> 239 Greene St, 7th floor
> New York, NY 10012
> Blog: http://nicholasmirzoeff.com/RTL
> News: http://nicholasmirzoeff.com/news
> The New Everyday: http://mediacommons.futureofthebook.org/tne
>
> On Sep 7, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Anya Kamenetz wrote:
>
> Well, if you're going to toss about words like "builder", "maker," and
> "naive",
> John Bell has built a tool and platform for learning, which we're currently
> discussing to generate new ideas.
> Phillipp Schmidt has made a tool and platform for learning, which I'm
> currently participating on.
> Neither of them are corporate.
> What have you built to make the Internet better for radical education?
> What's your project?
> a
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Brian Holmes <bhcontinentaldrift at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> I don't have any such orthodoxy. I just have an opinion on your apparent
>> naivete. The Internet is good for a lot of things, but as time goes by,
>> more and more of them are corporate. To make it good for radical
>> education is actually a project that interests me. However, the
>> discussion in this thread just replicates the protocols of Web 2.0
>> infotainment, a narcissistic hook and a very superficial format for
>> learning. Let the maker and the user beware.
>>
>> best, Brian
>>
>> On 09/07/2011 01:56 PM, Anya Kamenetz wrote:
>> > Brian,
>> > doesn't your participation on this email list violate your orthodoxy of
>> > the skin-to-skin holy transmission of knowledge?
>> > a
>> >
>> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Brian Holmes
>> > <bhcontinentaldrift at gmail.com <mailto:bhcontinentaldrift at gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > This is a timely subject just as public education is getting axed
>> all
>> > over the world. It will be the final victory of the bosses: without
>> > books, without attention span, without ideas except those piped in
>> by
>> > the media and above all without others, control will be complete.
>> >
>> > You'll get the source without the crowd, perfect sterility.
>> >
>> > I submit that the chance to escape from total fear and submission
>> > depends on having some contact to another speaking body in the room.
>> >
>> > But probably the apolitical designer types can get two or three
>> weeks
>> > work making edu-sites for future capitalist game robots!
>> >
>> > good luck, BH
>> >
>> > On 09/06/2011 11:13 AM, John Bell wrote:
>> > > Yes, I think identifying and distinguishing types of peers is an
>> > > important aspect of the kind of system I'm talking about. The
>> part
>> > > that's problematic is--without falling back on external
>> validation
>> > > like degrees and academic positions--figuring out which people
>> are
>> > > which type, and what the scope of the types are. For example, I
>> just
>> > > did something similar for a proposal as part of the
>> > > Mozilla+Journalism project where I was trying to identify
>> commenters
>> > > with expertise in different fields so they could add annotation
>> to
>> > > mass media articles. In that system a commenter could claim a
>> level
>> > > of expertise when they made a comment and a trust metric would
>> adjust
>> > > their long-term credibility based on how other users rate that
>> > > comment. It's a refinement of the old Slashdot karma model, but
>> one
>> > > that seems useful in this situation.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > (
>> http://www.nmdjohn.com/2011/08/05/moznewslab-week-4-pitching-reposte/
>> > > if anybody is curious.)
>> > >
>> > > But I think there are limits to how much participation can be
>> > > incentivized without ending up back at cash, which I suspect
>> > > introduces its own problems. Look at the situation with
>> Wikipedia
>> > > where they rewarded participation by turning users into
>> bureaucrats,
>> > > creating a system that's often accused of being petty and
>> detrimental
>> > > to the health of the project. Amazon's biggest reviewer is
>> widely
>> > > regarded as untrustworthy by people who know who she is, writing
>> > > reviews of books that she clearly hasn't read (those who don't
>> > > recognize her of course don't know this, and Amazon doesn't
>> expose
>> > > enough information for casual users to reach that conclusion on
>> their
>> > > own).
>> > >
>> > > So the question I'm left with is how to create incentives that go
>> > > beyond status in the internal community. Can external incentives
>> be
>> > > used without creating the equivalent of Warcraft gold farmers?
>> What
>> > > would they be?
>> > >
>> > > - John
>> > >
>> > > On Sep 5, 2011, at 6:02 PM, Anya Kamenetz wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Really interesting stuff, John! Definitely agree with you on the
>> > >> "necessary but not sufficient" formulation.
>> > >>
>> > >>>> But the issue we’d like to discuss with the list is what a
>> > >>>> system with the same goals--ongoing, deep evaluation of
>> complex
>> > >>>> learning--would look like if it were designed to work on the
>> > >>>> same scale as, say, the Khan Academy. Is peer feedback
>> > >>>> sufficient to meet those goals? If so, quality would somehow
>> > >>>> need to be controlled so that it doesn’t turn into a stream of
>> > >>>> YouTube comments, and if not some other method would have to
>> be
>> > >>>> used to deal with large volumes of students.
>> > >>
>> > >> What strikes me is that there are different types of peers--some
>> > >> peers perhaps more equal than others. In a community of practice
>> > >> model there are fellow beginners, who have one type of feedback
>> to
>> > >> offer, then there are people just ahead of you--like the
>> sophomore,
>> > >> junior, senior to your freshman, who have a different type of
>> > >> feedback (less grounded in immediate understanding of what
>> you're
>> > >> going through and more grounded in knowledge and experience),
>> and
>> > >> then graduate student/TA/professor with a more sophisticated
>> > >> offering still.
>> > >>
>> > >> One can imagine a scalable system that incentivizes feedback
>> > >> according to the experience and sophistication of the person
>> > >> offering it, and thus its likely value to the user. Maybe it's a
>> > >> "freemium" model where learners give and receive feedback freely
>> as
>> > >> a condition of participation up to a certain level of
>> experience,
>> > >> and the most experienced participants receive other kinds of
>> > >> incentives (even money?) in exchange for offering the most
>> > >> detailed, sophisticated, time-consuming forms of feedback. I
>> often
>> > >> think back to my summer studying capoeira where the most
>> > >> experienced students took on more and more responsibilities
>> > >> instructing the beginners, as an honor--but only the mestre gets
>> > >> paid.
>> > >>
>> > >> Of course there are other technological ways of encouraging
>> quality
>> > >> control on a large system that depends for its value on freely
>> > >> offered feedback. These are all over the net. TripAdvisor,
>> Amazon,
>> > >> eBay, Quora, Yelp are all good examples--Yelp in particular,
>> again
>> > >> for the way it incentivizes its best providers of feedback,
>> making
>> > >> them a recognized part of a community, allowing the raters to
>> earn
>> > >> ratings. LinkedIn with its endorsement structure another one to
>> > >> look at. Maybe you need a system of badges, tags or profile
>> > >> keywords so you can ask a native Brazilian to read your
>> Portuguese
>> > >> paper or a nationally ranked chess player to check out your game
>> or
>> > >> someone with a stellar Github rating to look at your code. a
>> > >
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>> >
>> > --
>> > *New ebook!** *The Edupunks' Guide <http://edupunksguide.org/>*
>> > Fast Company column* Life In Beta
>> > <http://www.fastcompany.com/user/anya-kamenetz>
>> > *Tribune Media column* The Savings Game
>> > <
>> http://www.tmsfeatures.com/columns/business/personal-finance/savings-game/
>> >
>> > *Book* DIY U: Edupunks, Edupreneurs and the Coming Transformation of
>> > Higher Education
>> > <
>> http://www.amazon.com/DIY-Edupunks-Edupreneurs-Transformation-Education/dp/1603582347
>> >
>> > *Blog* DIYUbook.com <http://diyubook.com/>
>> > *Twitter *@Anya1anya <http://twitter.com/#%21/anya1anya>
>> >
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>
>
>
> --
> *New ebook!** *The Edupunks' Guide <http://edupunksguide.org/>*
> Fast Company column* Life In Beta<http://www.fastcompany.com/user/anya-kamenetz>
> *Tribune Media column* The Savings Game<http://www.tmsfeatures.com/columns/business/personal-finance/savings-game/>
> *Book* DIY U: Edupunks, Edupreneurs and the Coming Transformation of
> Higher Education
> <http://www.amazon.com/DIY-Edupunks-Edupreneurs-Transformation-Education/dp/1603582347>
> *Blog* DIYUbook.com <http://diyubook.com/>
> *Twitter *@Anya1anya <http://twitter.com/#%21/anya1anya>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
*New ebook!** *The Edupunks' Guide <http://edupunksguide.org/>*
Fast Company column* Life In Beta<http://www.fastcompany.com/user/anya-kamenetz>
*Tribune Media column* The Savings
Game<http://www.tmsfeatures.com/columns/business/personal-finance/savings-game/>
*Book* DIY U: Edupunks, Edupreneurs and the Coming Transformation of Higher
Education
<http://www.amazon.com/DIY-Edupunks-Edupreneurs-Transformation-Education/dp/1603582347>
*Blog* DIYUbook.com <http://diyubook.com/>
*Twitter *@Anya1anya <http://twitter.com/#%21/anya1anya>
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